Its a great way to learn. In the best case scenario youd be adding at least another table cell to get another block of information compared to adding another div for another block of information, which would grow our code equally. 2. The third problem with tables is in how browsers render them. IMO, performance claims made in the absence of benchmark testing are the definition of hype. What Im saying though is the problem isnt css itself. When people are having trouble getting a css layout to look the same across browsers its usually more to do with the skills of the designer than with css itself. Using isnt semantic and isnt CSS. WebDisadvantages of Sketch Maps (3) easily exaggerated and distorted, one view at one point in time, not an accurate representation of an area. Its really about 5 -10 minutes work to set up. Ive heard the argument that reduced code helps with SEO, with people saying that too much code makes it harder for Google to parse. Newspapers have figured out this ideal layout a long time ago, and have thus named their writers columnists. With a simple table structure the extra time might not be noticeable, but as the structure becomes more complex with more and more tables nested inside each other it is noticeable. Ive done that for people before. He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. I never said I prefur tables. A div-based layout is: easier to maintain less code and less Suppose you have a typical two column layout (content and sidebar) and you wanted to reverse the order. 4) Separation of Style and Content I guess this one is related #1, ease of updating? However there are other methods to abstract changes that need to be applied to more then one file into a single file. I hope I wasnt coming across as bashing tables. Im not sure why people think it takes a lot of time to get things working cross browser. Tables have proven themselves and Im going old school. .Net has master pages and user controls which are ideal for repeating blocks of code. Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages. Those arguments alone should be enough to tip the scales in the argument. Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. The easiest way to create a table of contents is to use the built-in Web designers who take the time to learn css dont have the same problems youre seeing. Long Run Maintenance 5. w3c standards are useless 6. structure and content css vs tables round II. Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. There might be cross-browser issues while using CSS. I hope this will show some good ways to the others. After making the changes we need to confirm the compatibility if they appear. I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. I can bring myself to use tables, but css severly restricts my deisgns because of cross-browser compatibility. Just because tables make one thing easier doesnt make them better than divs and css overall. Columns of equal height? You are a part of an ever growing majority. Accessibility issues arise more frequently due to excessive coding ok so this can be attributed to bad coding but its such a common issue that it has to be taken into account. Im amazed that in 2013 people are still defending table-based layouts, but whatever. Having done programming I understand reusability of code and the ease of making changes in one place for large websites, but this is little good with small sites. @Dave I think were getting squished with the replies to each other so Im starting a new comment. Neither is true. 2) Faster Load Times Because of Lighter Code I remember load times being a major issue when I first got started but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore with so few people on dialup. I promise Im not laughing. It looks promising and hopefully will be the way forward from now on, getting rid of both the ugly table and div mess once and for all Id be interested to know what you think of it. If you have a high volume site, it might be a good reason to consider using divs. You can make css work with IE and it really isnt hard. Otherwise, I just appreciate when someone makes the website function well enough for me to get to the content Im looking for. I think it gets an unfair rap sometimes. First Im glad to see you making the switch. A div is a more generic container that doesnt impose any structure on the content within. It sounds like youre using tables the same way Im suggesting is fine. Thats crazy. The border-collapse property sets whether the table borders Thats not meant as a knock against you. 1)Flexible?No.Tables are much more flexible due to fixed positions.Yes,fixed positions.You just have to set the positions and hey presto!Your site as you want it! Lastly Id like to say that I dont think problem is with tables or divs, but what html has to offer, there isnt really anything specific for that type of design, tables werent meant to be used for layout but data instead, there hasnt been anything until now with css3 and css3-grid positioning perhaps http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid/. Regarding flexibility, I can see your point about how divs/css can make it possible to flip columns around by only making changes to a css file, and have those changes propagate to many files. You can definitely hire someone to create a template for the site if you want. Especially when php can make up for some of the down falls. As far as other people having the same issues with css, I do agree that happens. What css function does that? Divs can work independently from each other. However, know that the industry has moved on. As I see it, table layouts have precisely two advantages: 1. Im glad your process works for you, but that doesnt change my opinion. I REALLY dont have any desire to fight that battle again. It separates style from content (editable/un-editable). These must all be on the same horizontal line to work, and if one has a word or two text change, only that column will flow properly, and I have to do lots of editing of the other columns. IE and Opera supports CSS as different logic. Both my table and div layouts use css equally. My point was they arent the same thing and so to learn how to use divs you should learn the strengths and weaknesses of divs and not try to force the strengths and weaknesses of tables and table cells on them. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. When using CSS for layout, browsers can cache Out of curiosity did you read the post? Hi Jennifer. designing since 1999 started with dreamweaver, handcoding is a pain and for programmers. Using display: table-cell would work fine now that everyone uses IE8 or over, but the floating div folks insist on emulating a grid with floating blocks anyway. Let me also say that if you prefer to develop sites with a table-based layout, good for you. I have designed the following sample homepage for a client: Times have changed. Everything else is really irrelevant. And if you want to use a wysiwyg editor, they just dont work properly anymore in 2019. I think, though I havent used them in years, that tables are far superior for site maintenance in that you do not have to adjust sizes, just add or take away a table cell. No technique is designed to be used in isolation. They dont need a lot of fancy features or tons of content. But using tables and styling them completely with CSS is just as effective as CSS alone. Browser compatibility (some styles sheet are supported and some are not). Thanks Rami and interesting analogy. I also believe the opposite, theres no point using table rendering if you DO want them to be independent. So, if thats the structure it uses the same amount of code. Research I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. There are a lot of myths propagated by both sides in this debate, but once you cut through most of them the argument really boils down to a few things. Im not suggesting you should never use an html table anywhere. One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. If you need to create a modern site that supports an older browser, CSS imposes huge costs. I have an unorthodox, perhaps unstandardized approach to web design. So what difference does it make? Enter css and Ive never looked back. The times when floating blocks are more appropriate to use, besides its original intended use of having text wrap around images, is specifically when the blocks are meant to be independent from one another. Sure. The first thing we need to do is sort out the spacing/layout default table styling is so cramped! Sometimes they write for things called tabloids, or articles of paragraphs arranged in tabular form. Im amazed people still argue in favor of table-based layout. So, its important to ensure faster speed. I didnt make any specific performance claims here other than faster, which you apparently proved. Tuples support multi typed-values, indexes, optimized for lookup, but a lack of schema flexibility. If they want to tweak something in the design, again, piece of cake to do. Some times you just need to get it done and move on. Advantages of OS Maps (1) Shows static long-term features. 8.1 Introduction to Style Sheets . The performance claims Ive read about here and elsewhere on the web for divs over tables are over-hyped I found only a 10 ms advantage for the div technique over the table technique. Both were done with tables. All you really need to do float the customer service phone number and search form to the right. You pointed out that table cells dont work independently. Every table cell is dependent on the other table cells in its row to maintain the structure. The columns of a newspaper are used to guide the reader along the layout. The tool emits old school attribute heavy html tables but I wrote a little javascript parser that seperates things out into clean html and css. Theres a huge error in logic in your argument. CSS based design is unquestionably superior to table layout, but due to sheer laziness the practice of table design has held on. I dont care what anybody says. CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. Which is why Im not one to generally make that argument. I dont even have a copy of IE to work with. The flexibility is in your html structure. Where did I say you shouldnt try to make tables with divs? The argument isnt what a div can do vs what a table can do. John Taylor Tables are simply not faster to create. Likewise I seem to see a lot of likewise ambiguous clamoring about the change that CSS brings with little reason to change. I have no great love for code. And now its 10 years later, 2019, WYSIWYG editors are no longer WYSIWYG but a complicated and incomprehensible hodgepodge, only one of which automatically adjusts for the many mobile device and display sizes, loading time is irrelevant and Im about to do a site with tables. When I first started using css for layout I couldnt always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. Maybe Ill have to write a post on styling tables. When you ask about table type content with css do you mean using css to show tabular data or are you asking more about how to style tables? (801) 636-5158. very nice article, good job, i wanted to add my comment based on my own humble experience.. CSS is like a a sword, once you master it, you could be a powerful warrior, and if you truly go advanced with it, youll never ever consider tables once you start writing complicated web apps, that consist of heavy javascript code for the layout, youll feel how important CSS is.. Maybe I just havent searched the web enough. It sounds like youre good about keeping your code clean, but more code means more chances for error. Unless you offer specifics Im going to assume youre just name calling, because you were unhappy with my previous comment. Also anytime you come across a site with a layout you like copy the source code and when you have time study it to see if you can understand how they did what they did. Home. Return on Investment 4. By understanding what each layout method is designed for you'll be in a good position to understand which method is I have used css and divs to create multiple lists for a table structure with four side by side columns. . I have used table-based layouts for a few years and have started using css to mainly style text. any pretty crap i use css on those parts alone. If youre asking about the former then Id say go ahead and use a table when youre presenting data in columns and rows. And, if anything, those advantages are more pronounced now than ever. I feel like one of the reasons that tables are still so widely used are the WYSIWYGs. Yes, but you can get it done just as quickly with css. If you want to report an error, or if you want to make a suggestion, do not hesitate to send us an e-mail: W3Schools is optimized for learning and training. Take the time to learn how to use it. I thought the debate was or should have been dead a few years ago. Theyre quicker to load which I mentioned above. Ive seen these performance claims for div over table all over the web, and many of them assert much faster, rather then simply faster. Incidentially you do provide 100% of the code because you show it in your examples, in the source. Do a search for css vs tables or similar and you can find a lot out there. If you originally decide all your h1 tags should be blue and later want them to be red its certainly easier to have your h1 style sitting in a single css file. Ive offered tutorials on the basic layout and Ive offered tutorials on things that can go inside that layout, but never all the code for an entire site. The load time though, is now reason enough to recommend css over tables for seo. Youre welcome to use them to layout sites if you want. Styles application means easy Table of Contents generation. I think you hit the nail right on the head with this comment. I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. Kind of ironic. Thats always going to be better done using css. One must know these disadvantages so that he or she is aware and takes care of them while WYSIWYG editors seem a lot better to me today than they were 10 years ago. Theyre interested in your content. They arent called floating blockists. Examples might be simplified to improve reading and learning. Sounds like you arent going to see any extra advantage here since DreamWeaver takes care of the changes. If you are designing using CSS for layout, cool! biscotools.com. You are here: This post isnt a tutorial so I would need to know which one or ones youre referring to as well. Tables and divs are the structure. You said I made overhyped performance claims, which I didnt. This is the same when using divs. Where exactly are my tutorials not accurate? E.g. 1. Not exactly the kind of thing thats going to make me want to help you/. Believe me, Im not making the argument for convoluted nested tables with colspan settings, etc, nor am I arguing against semantically correct documents. Why does anyone really care how something is put together? I mentioned at the start of this post that misinformation spreads on both sides of this debate. That brings us to the second problem with tables. It helps to form spontaneous and consistent changes. Justin, apparently I named this post well, since the debate never seems to die. You say that people apparently think tables are easier than css because they already know tables, but I think youre wrong there. I use it and love it. 3) SEO From what I can tell, search engines arent indexing or ranking CSS layouts higher than table layouts. misinformation spreads on both sides of this debate, http://blog.hotdesign.com/2008/10/what-is-css/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css, http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/, Establishing Stability In 2021 After A Chaotic 2020, My Goals For 2020This Object In Motion Wants To Keep Moving, 2019 Goals ReviewAn Unexpected Change Of Plans Taught Me A Lot, Happy ThanksgivingWindow Displays, MOMA, and Central Park Images, ReviewThe Elements Of Logo Design: Design Thinking, Branding, and Making Marks. Laying information out this way is simply more intuitive than floating divs, not from a web standards perspective, but from a kid puts shapes in the holes perspective. With Googles latest algorithm update (Caffeine) emphasising page load times as a SE ranking factor it is now more important than ever from an SEO stand point to reduce the amount of code on a webpage. Now that they have indicated that load times will be a ranking factor I would agree that divs make more sense. Well, today a few colleagues of mine got freaked out when they saw me using a table to display data. My homepage is currently structured with divs. As far as the speed issues, Google didnt really talk about load times affecting ranking until after I wrote this post. As far as it being easier for you to code it with a table now, thats probably true. What Im trying to figure out is the benefits in using CSS for LAYOUT. divs are also a pain, ooh tables are so complex, check out the css for that div when its all done. the ability to do this is what switched me from using the table-based layouts I was first taught. Its often used as simple data storage, NoSQL. 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