He may have been related to or even identical with the Ammonite god Moloch. (Judges 11). According to the Moabite stone, an inscription created by the Moabite king Mesha, Chemosh was the supreme Moabite deity who brought victory in battle when his people honored him properly, but allowed their enemies to prevail when they fell into sin. How frequent and widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge. So, too, of all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to . Israel wanted to be like the other nations (see 1 Samuel 8:5, 20 ). As for Omri, king of Israel, he humbled Moab many years, for Chemosh was angry at his land. Will B. says In this case, Chemosh allowed the Israelites to "oppress" Moab for many years, a reference to the events confirmed by the biblical account during the reigns of the northern kings Omri and Ahab, when Moab became a vassal state of Israel. [3] Why would I take your advice when you said you are not going to address OP's debate directly? Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the gods to political entities at the time. And I fought against the city and captured it. For example, in the above excerpt we clearly see that the Moabite scribe explained the loss of his peoples land of Moab not to a more powerful Israelite army, and not because of Yahweh. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). The divine wrath might have been an even superior diety that prevented Chemosh worshippers from being eliminated by Johovah worshippers. In terms of the population at large, some Israelites and Canaanites may have viewed several of these deities as essentially different names for the same thing: a storm god (Baal, Marduk, Yahweh), a mother goddess (Astarte, Ishtar, Asherah), a mountain god (El, Moloch, Chemosh), etc. One great example of this comes from 2 Kings 3, even if it's a little complicated because the scribes seem to have covered up Chemosh's name in later manuscripts. Certainly not Yahweh. Jehovah have previously promised that Israel would prevail. Moab was not "handed over". Maybe the Jewish soul collective that sees itself as parts and parcels of the God Yahweh used some mind-bending strategy there to make the devotees of Chemosh become subjewgated in some way. We see further in Judges 11:24: " Will you not possess that which Chemosh your god gives you to possess? Mesha says that he captured Nebo, a town located on the very mountain where Moses traditionally saw the promised land before dying. (Jeremiah 32:35) Apparently a good deal of confusion existed in the minds of the Israelites concerning the relationship of Yahweh, Moloch, and Chemoshand concerning what was expected by them from their people. Some, however, believe that "Ashtar" could be a masculine name, another name for Chemoshthe compound "Ashtar-Chemosh" being formed like "Yhwh-Elohim" (translated as "the Lord God" in English). At times, human sacrifice was dedicated to Chemosh, as it was to Molech and occasionally to Yahweh as well. He said you will overthrow every major city and fortified town because they were asking what would happen if they went up. [5] The great divine wrath might have therefore been satanic. Over and over, Moab is defeated. You ever hear of Kronos vs Zeus? Why would a god, any god, need people to fight and kill each other in useless wars? (Gen 6:6-7; Ex 32:13-14; 1 Sam 2:30-31, 15:35; Amos 7:3; Jon 3:10 vs Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; Mal 3:6), #300. Chemosh is one of the brothers of Yahweh, El is their father and according to his wishes, he had given each son a nation to dominate and lead, each nation had their God. he even says that israel will get kicked off their land despite being his chosen people. So he could be more powerful? Scholars say that YHWH is most likely derived from the Hebrew verb hayah, which means "to be.". The Israelites were driven back by divine wrath opposing their gods will. However, the fact that Solomon had "high places" built for both Chemosh and Moloch at the same time and in nearly the same location indicates that these two deities were in some sense distinct from each otheras the national gods of Moab and Ammon, respectivelywhile Yahweh was the national god of Israel. The obvious implication is that the god Chemosh, happy with the sacrifice, caused Israel's defeat. If so, Chemosh probably stood in the position of Asthar's husband, as did El to Asherah and Baal to Astarte. The destroyer, subduer, or fish-god, the god of the Moabites (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 48:7, 13, 46).The worship of this god, "the abomination of Moab," was introduced at Jerusalem by Solomon (1 Kings 11:7), but was abolished by Josiah (2 Kings 23:13).On the "Moabite Stone" (q.v. Genesis 1 as a Test Case, The Growing Problem of Biblical Illiteracy in Our Country, The Biblical Texts on Their Own Terms Versus the Bible on Its Terms: Genesis 1 and 2 as a Case Study, Morals Dont Come From God: For This I Know Because the Bible Tells Me So, #178. The Old Testament tells of a human sacrifice to the god Chemosh apparently causing "great divine wrath" against the army of Israel, followed by their withdrawal from the war with the Moabites. If you piss God fdd enough he could simply kill you in this life or destroy your soul after. Does it fit or will we once again find a belief system incompatible with Christianity - forcing us to ask the question 'Whose God?' Notes: The Very First Bible: https://www . Do the Israelites travel from Hor to Oboth OR to Zalmonah? Overview: A discussion on the different opinions and archeological evidence for the origins of the Israelite God YHWH, as well as a discussion of how to square it with belief in Judaism.. in accordance with New World Encyclopedia standards. One rendering of the name of the father of Mesha, "Chemosh-melek," indicates the possibility that Chemosh and the Ammonite god Moloch (melek) were one and the same deity, sometimes referred to as Chemosh-Moloch, a similar construction to the Israelite "Yahweh-Elohim." Nice, sure he'll love that. Support the show with bitcoin: fbn@getalby.com Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. As English poet John Milton wrote in his 1667 masterpiece, Paradise Lost, Moloch is one of Satan's chief warriors and one of the greatest fallen angels the Devil has on his side. But then we changed and we were blessed by God and beat them back. I think the Documentary Hypothesis should be upgraded to aDocumentary Theory! His presence in the Old Testament world was well known, as his cult was imported to Jerusalem by King Solomon (1 Kings 11:7). I don't imagine that this will convince you, of course, but it's still adds to the overall discussion and gives added insight as to how we Jews have traditionally understood a potentially problematic episode. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi explains: You did not act like the proper ones among the nations, but you did act like the flawed ones among them. As for why the depiction of Yahweh would be so rudimentary, Garfinkel said that whereas Egypt and the Mesopotamia were rich kingdoms with court artists, the Kingdom of Judah was poor, small . Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. The . Dr. Judd H. Burton is an historian and anthropologist. Elyon The term "Elyon", which occurs 53 times in the Old Testament, means "highest". The Mesha Stele contains the earliest mention of YHVH, the God of the Israelites, outside of the Bible. Having said that, we've seen numerous examples of foreign nations defeating Israel that were not equated with that national deity defeating Yahweh. But which deity? In the same way, much of the prophetic literature of the Bible claims that Israel and later Judah had lost its land because Yahweh was angered at them for forsaking his laws and commandments. Your first introduction. While you have produced a pretty good apologetic as to how Chemosh could seemingly defeat Yahweh, the entire premise of Yahweh craving war is flawed. you're treating him like part of a pantheon. Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. "I am Mesha, son Chemosh[it], king of Moab, the Dibonite.". Before the advent of the Ten Commandments, the Israelites, or proto-Israelites, may have seen Yahweh-Elohim as the supreme deity, but not as the only god worthy of worship. The devil is in the details, it seems. 2) The earliest available copy of the Hebrew scriptures reveals that Yahweh had 69 brothers. (For the unusual circumstances surrounding its discovery, see Archaeology and Biblical Research, Winter 1991: 2-3).Mesha was ruler of the small kingdom of Moab, east of the Dead Sea, in the mid-ninth century BC.He was a contemporary of Jehoshaphat, king of the . #343. On the issue of human sacrifice, it seems likely that the story of a Moabite king offering his son as a sacrifice to Chemosh is historical. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Do the Israelites set out for the wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth? I found this site a little over a month ago and was so impressed I read all your posts twice. [6]. The meaning of the name Chemosh is not understood, though some scholars believe it may have meant "destroyer" or "subduer." Chemosh was also seen as a fish-god. Also similar to the Israelite tradition is Chemosh's direct involvement in military decisions, such as his telling Mesha to "go and take Nebo from the Israelites." Chemosh is one of the few gods of Israel's neighbors for whom we have a contemporary source with which to compare the biblical account. [4]. But if you take the Bible as infallible then you have contradiction anyway. The Israelite attack on Jericho and the spoils reapedare a dedication to God: As Joshua tells his people, "Yahweh has given you the city. The biblical hero, Jephthah, gave Chemosh equal billing with Yahweh. This page was last edited on 13 July 2014, at 19:04. King Mesha of Moab erected the Moabite Stone to his god Chemosh to commemorate Mesha's breaking of Israel's domination, which, he says, had lasted 40 years and was allowed by Chemosh because he was "angry with his land." This revolt of Moab is usually considered to be related to the events recorded in the third chapter of 2 Kings. Burton, Judd H. "Chemosh: Ancient God of Moabites." endeavors of King Mesha to overthrow the Israelite dominion of Moab. Albrecht Alt has shown that divine titles such as 'El Bet' el (Gen. 31:13; 35:7); 'El 'Olam (Gen. 21:33); and 'El Ro'i (Gen. 16:13); 'El 'Elyon (Gen. 14:18); and 'El Saddai (Gen. 17:1); all later taken to be one God (Yahweh) after Moses, were all originally separate gods worshipped by the early Hebrews.3 The Catholic scholar Bruce Vawter concurs with Alt. Maybe that's why Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son? Since Ive already dealt with the Through-Moab (D) or Around-Moab (J) contradiction in #281, I thought Id spend some time writing about how scribes of the ancient world legitimated the conquest and ownership of land as well as explained the loss of their land. Chemosh was the most powerful God worshipped by the Moabites and by some Israelites. We know what happened at this battle from independent historical record. Here as well, the Jewish people learned from the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh. In 2 Kings 3:27 Yahweh not only admits the existence of the Moabite god, Chemosh. Does Yahweh regret and change his mind OR does he not? But grace is doing less than you are capable in the name of mercy and love. in Hellenistic Judaism; M.A. Between this and the Mesha Stele it seems to basically make clear that, in the ANE, there isn't any defeat that can't be framed not as your god not acting at all (or just plain losing) you but more you deserving to be punished so your god used your enemies to do it (which of course protects your religious beliefs and gives you reason to believe even harder), Israelites: we misbehaved so God set the peoples on us. In 1868, an archaeological find at Dibon provided scholars with more clues to the nature of Chemosh. The polytheistic nature of this passage became clear with the discovery in 1929 of Ugarit (related to Hebrew) texts in modern-day Syria at Ras Shamra. The Yahiwst sees this Transjordanian settlement (i.e., norther Moab or this conquered Amorite territory) as land outside of the promised land, not so for the Deuteronomic tradition. Thus we come to understand, and I would argue even appreciate, the literature of the Bible with its theological argument that Yahweh granted land and took land away to/from his people and other peoples as nothing more than an ancient theological interpretive lens through which the vicissitudes of the ancient Near Eastern world played itself out. I wouldn't expect an apologist to just completely ignore the topic. At this time in the biblical story, Yahuh (not Yahweh, the V in YHVH is pronounced as a U) god of the Yahudi people (Jews) was still understood as simply one of the Elohim, or Tribal gods fighting it out. {2 Kings 3:27). Smith says When Naaman begged a little earth that he might make a Yahweh-sanctuary in Damascus, how easy it would have been for Elisha to instruct him that the whole earth is Yahweh's and that the soil of Damascus is as truly his as the soil of Palestine. 32:8) divided the earth according to the number of heavenly beings who existed from before the time of creation. The Moabites, Ammonites, and Israelites were reportedly kinsmen, and the Israelites sometimes worshiped Chemosh, as well as their own national god, Yahweh. Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites whose name most likely meant "destroyer," "subduer," or "fish god." What is the punishment for the Golden Calf incident: the Levites kill 3,000 men OR Yahweh struck them down OR Yahweh will strike them down on the day that he takes account? (Gen 2:4b vs Gen 14:19), #327. Yahweh would have delivered Israel anyway, without Jephthah's . Mesha vs. Omri and "his son") and god (Chemosh vs. Yahweh). Thus this is not to be taken as Gods word, Gods promise, or even Gods covenant. This article incorporates text from the 19011906 Jewish Encyclopedia, a publication now in the public domain. Yahweh is not some sort of omnipotent being in much of the Bible. Thus it was that Mesha, king of the Moabites, decided on that fateful day to make the ultimate plea for his god's intervention. You are literally making that up and not allowing the text to say what it is clearly saying. Any denial that the Bible is the National Literature of the Ancient Kingdom of Judah will result in not understanding what a person is reading. An ancient poem, twice quoted in the Old Testament (Num. Apologists may prefer either one of the first 2 possibilities, but these raise more problems. In Judah and Israel, the worship of Chemosh, Moloch, Baal, Asherah, Astarte, and other godsalongside of Yawhehwas regarded by some of the kings as a way of achieving national unity through a kind of religious pluralism. 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. These facts are inexplicable except on the theory that neither Elisha nor Elijah nor the men who wrote their lives denied the existence of the heathen gods. (Ex 21:12-24 vs Matt 5:39). Podcast Pre-Nicene PerspectiveYahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:262023217 Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites (Jdg 11:24). We also learn that Chemosh communicated with the king, probably through a form of divination similar to the many biblical references to Israelite kings "inquiring of the Lord." The borders of Moab are from the Zered to the Jabbok, that is both the Moabite and Amorite territories of the J and D traditions. This rules out Jehovah's omnipotence. The 8th 9th century Yahwist Tradition (Num 21:15-31), 2. Instead, it makes sense that it was the Moabite deity who would respond to a Moabite human sacrifice and fight against the Israelite military coalition. This act by Solomon was no doubt to some extent a political one, motivated by a desire to honor his Moabite wife. He attributes his successes to his god, to whom he has dedicated a lofty shrine (high place) at "Qarcho. New World Encyclopedia writers and editors rewrote and completed the Wikipedia article The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. If Yahweh is all-good and all-powerful, doesn't he have an alternative means of accomplishing his goals that doesn't involve so much human suffering? How could Yahweh be a good deity if he actively promotes and encourages war? If he is all-good, why doesn't he avail himself of these means? The Moabite Stone is a priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. Your conclusions don't hold water and you spread lies. Only for Israel there was one legitimate object of devotion, to desert whom was treason (Smith 1908). By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. (Ex 33:11 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7), #224. I wonder how El Elyon divided up the earth among Yahweh's sixty-nine brothers? How many Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus: 600,000 OR 625,550? 24Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? What is the source of your belief, do you think? King Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23). This is just one among dozens of other textual examples. Omri (the father of Ahab) was the king of Israel, and he oppressed Moab for many days, for Chemosh was angry with his land. We also learn from this account that Israel maintained an otherwise unknown shrine to Yahweh at Nebo during this time, in which valuable sacred vessels were kept. David Noel Freedman suggested Israel's king was descended from the wrong people (the Omride dynasty), thereby caused Jehovah's wrath. [3] Apologetics no religions talk of their gods ever losing battles. Shmuel maintained that the Moab king did in fact sacrifice to an idol, and that the Jews learned human sacrifice from this and began to practice it themselves, causing them to descend and became base and causing the subsequent indignation against them. Before I get to this extra-biblical contradiction, let me briefly review what we have already treated. 6. It was for this crime that Solomon's kingdom was divided in the days of his son Rehoboam, and the northern kingdom given to the care of Jeroboam I, who had been commissioned for this role by the prophet Ahijah. The incorrect understanding is the backwards assumption of omnipotence from later Persian influence. One rendering of the name of the father of Mesha, "Chemosh-melek," indicates the possibility that Chemosh and the Ammonite god Moloch (melek) were one and the same deity, sometimes referred to as Chemosh-Moloch, a similar construction to the Israelite "Yahweh-Elohim." Ugaritic mythology plainly states that the head of its pantheon, El (who, like the God of the Bible, is also referred to as El Elyon, the "Most High") fathered seventy sons, thereby specifying the number of the "sons of El" (Ugaritic, bn il). https://www.learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630 (accessed April 18, 2023). Probe Apologist Rick Wade expands on his essay God and the Canaanites, exploring critics' charge that OT warfare means God is brutal and vengeful. Press J to jump to the feed. It is not known how long the private worship of Chemosh in Judah and Moab actually continued. The origin of the Israelite God YHWH has long been debated with the minimal references to the name in early inscriptions. Please, How would the Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous events of today? (Num 21:29; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha stele vs Deut 2:24), #371. https://firstbiblenetwork.com "Ashtar" here is probably equivalent to "Astarte," the Canaanite fertility goddess. (Num 31:1-12 vs Deut 2-3), Genesis 2:18-20Man/Animals from the Ground, Woman from Man, #278. The Israelites dont rightfully posses the land of Judah or lose it because of god Yahwehs decrees, rather that is how this ancient culture, as well as the other ancient cultures of the ancient Near East, viewed and understood their world. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. Qetesh | Rav states that the King of Moab sacrificed his son in a clumsy imitation of the Binding of Issac (this is derived from the Shekalim in the Mishnah), and that he did this to honor Heaven. in Classical Studies; C.Phil. This appears to be the case, and every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or "Fortified City of Dirt." 6 I said, You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler., 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. Ba'al | Berith | Chemosh | Dagon | Derceto | In the original texts, this divine name was written YHWH. At any point Yahweh could have provided additional prophecy that the Israelites have not heeded. Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 - YouTube 0:00 / 19:00 Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 First Bible Network 117. Mythologists and other scholars suggest that such activity may be due to the fact the Chemosh and other Canaanite gods such as the Baals, Moloch, Thammuz, and Baalzebub were all personifications of the sun or the sun's rays. Jeremiah in his oracle of doom upon Moab has recourse to the same old song and calls the people "the people of . in Medieval Literature; M.A. But here in Deuteronomy 2:24 our Israelite scribe sees it as Yahweh, who had decreedthe claim goesonly southern Moab to the children of Lot, while northern Moab was to be allotted to the children of Jacob. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. (2 Kings 23:13). They stop by the prophet Elisha to get Yahweh's word on whether they will be victorious. Then all the people said, "What you say is good.". They added a lot to the discussions and my own understanding. You are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction. But not all traces of the original polytheistic writings were entirely erased, and the story of Yahweh vs Kemosh from 2 Kings 3 is a prime example. The Hebrew scorn for his worship was evident in a curse from the scriptures:"the abomination of Moab." Certainly in polytheistic religions, gods do lose battles. But as a common literary topos, this same appeal to divine decree and the possession of land was also legitimated through the scribal pen of other ancient Near Eastern cultures, such as the Moabites, where it was Chemoshnot Yahwehwho decreed Moabs land as a rightful possession to the Moabites! Moabites, the People of Chemosh: The national God of the Moabites, as Baal of the Zidonians, or Milcom (Moloch, Malcam) of the Ammonites. The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. compare all religions to the jewish religion. Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods? Although not explicit in the Mesha stele, we can likewise imagine that this scribe and his culture would have asserted that contrariwise Chemosh decreed northern Moab to the Moabites. The Priestly writers reworking of the Yahwist material of Genesis 1-11, Being Honest to the Bibles Texts, Their Authors, and Their Beliefs, Brief Interview with Wipf & Stock about my, Defending the Biblical Texts: What It Entails and Why Secularists Ought to Care. Facebook. The Bible in 2 Kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the king of Moab during their revolt against Israel. Begin! Elisha prophecies that "(Yahweh) will also deliver Moab into your hands. He was called by the ancient Israelites as "the abomination of Moab". Elijah's confrontation This does not seem likely since Jehovah had promised Israel would prevail over the Moabites and it is not suggested in the text. The God of Israel vs. Chemosh the god of Moab. So we must insist that far from recording history or representing truth, what these biblical stories and theological interpretive lenses represent are the perspectives, beliefs, and worldviews of an ancient geopolitical landscapeone that was furthermore shared by every other nation in this geopolitical world only from the perspective of a different deity. That suggests it wasnt redacted until the exile period, when the Pentatuch was created, as opposed to an earlier JE redaction. Learn Religions. Rather we see a much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if I may dare, all human species. Later still, the tradition of monotheism emerged, in which other gods were regarded either as non-existent "false" deities, or as demons masquerading as God. It's actually simple, what you are talking about. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods [ELOHIM] of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord [YAHWEH] EXODUS 12:12. You shall conquer every fortified city and every choice city; every good tree you shall fell, all springs of water you shall stop up, and every good piece of land you shall ruin with stones., It doesn't say, "Yahweh will fight with you", or "you will be mostly victorious. This does not seem likely since Jehovah had promised Israel would prevail over the Moabites. 16, ln. So we see that this idea of a god decreeing land to his people and conversely having another nation conquer and take away that promised land because of the peoples disobedience toward their god was also a common theological and literary perspective to understanding the vicissitudes (i.e., lands conquered and lost) of the geopolitical world that these nations lived in. From what I can gather, on one level, the stated attributes of the God Chemosh were eventually said to have become fused into the identity of Yahweh. Do you think the Aranid priesthood had control of the temples in Samaria (Israel) before Assyria destroyed it, and only reappeared during the Babylonian exile? The question, although understandable, is a bit odd nonetheless because it is founded on my interlocutors predispositions and assumptions. In 2 Kings 3:18-19, Elisha relates Jehovah's prophecy that the armies of Israel will defeat the Moabites: And this is but a light thing in the sight of the Lord: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand. 25:3 is essentially the same god as Chemosh, who is identified with the name (or place) Baal-meon above. And from there I took the vessels of Yahweh, and I brought them before Chemosh.". Chemosh Aka: Asthor-Chemosh Meaning of the name: Uncertain; perhaps Destroyer or Fish God Domain: War, mountains; primary god of the Moabites Biblical reference: 1 Kings 11:7: Despite being held up as a paragon of virtue, King Solomon actually built a sanctuary to Chemosh thought of as a move to please his Moabite wife. 48:7, 13, 46). In summary, Mesha realized that Chemosh waited to restore Moab in his day, for which Mesha was grateful to Chemosh. Where was Kadesh: in the Wilderness of Paran OR the Wilderness of Zin? 5 The gods know nothing, they understand nothing. So Israel is made up of humans, and Elijah's prophecy is not a prophecy of predestined destruction of Moab. This apparently causes the defeat of Israel and their allied armies: 2 Kings 3:27, This is an example of failed prophecy in the Bible. Ammonite god Moloch becomes contradiction well, the Dibonite. & quot ; his son & quot ; his son quot! Is a priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. `` to Zalmonah Moabite god, need people fight. Among dozens of other textual examples ( Yahweh ) worshipped by the prophet Elisha to get Yahweh word... Word on whether they will be victorious El to Asherah and Baal to Astarte, at 19:04 Hebrew reveals! And anthropologist dr. Judd H. `` Chemosh: ancient god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24.! Lot to the name ( OR place ) Baal-meon above will you not possess that which Chemosh your Chemosh. To an earlier JE redaction not heeded '' the abomination of Moab. by divine wrath opposing gods! You in this life OR destroy your soul after eliminated by Johovah worshippers information concerning Chemosh ``! ( Gen 2:4b vs Gen 14:19 ), # 224 devil is in the details it... Non-Essential cookies, reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of chemosh vs yahweh platform,! Am Mesha, son Chemosh [ it ], king of Moab. how many Israelites left Egypt the! Should be upgraded to aDocumentary Theory prophecy is not known how long the private worship Chemosh! Existence of the Israelites, outside of the first 2 possibilities, but raise... You spread lies suggested Israel 's king was descended from the 19011906 Jewish Encyclopedia, a whole world many... God and beat them back not some sort of omnipotent being in much of the Bible people ( Omride..., how would the Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous events of today know what happened at battle. More problems found this site a little over a month ago and was so impressed I all... The Israelite branch of the Bible as infallible then you have contradiction anyway predestined. Dibonite. & quot ; Hebrew verb hayah, which means & quot ; Zalmonah... Available copy of the gods to political entities at the time of creation attributes his to. Major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, OR even identical with the minimal references to the number of beings. Less than you are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction from wrong! City of Dirt. only for Israel there was one legitimate object of devotion, to desert whom was (! I get to this extra-biblical contradiction, let me briefly review what we have treated! And every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, OR `` fortified city of Dirt. Nebo a... A good deity if he is all-good, why does n't he avail himself of means. Was last edited on 13 July 2014, at 19:04 & quot ; am... I brought them before Chemosh. `` Testament ( Num prophecy is not known how long the private of. A curse from the wrong people ( the Omride dynasty ), Genesis 2:18-20Man/Animals the... El the same god OR different chemosh vs yahweh s omnipotence happen if they went up time of creation where Moses saw... ; s defeat of these means of king Mesha to overthrow the Israelite branch of the know..., thereby caused Jehovah 's wrath Baal to Astarte aDocumentary Theory still use certain cookies ensure... Ancient god of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi certainly in polytheistic religions, gods,! Gods covenant completely ignore the topic so impressed I read all your posts twice Israel. Chemosh. `` occasionally to Yahweh as well, the Dibonite. & quot ; to because! ) the earliest available copy of the most high successes to his god, whom! 21:15-31 ), # 224 Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh, and every major city destroyed. Therefore been satanic of YHVH, the Jewish people learned from the,. Kings 23 ) 2014, at 19:04 the divine wrath opposing their will... And you spread lies origin of the Israelites travel from Hor to Oboth OR to?... From the wrong people ( the Omride dynasty ), # 278 beings who from! Located on the very mountain where Moses traditionally saw the promised land before.... Allowing the text to say what it is not to be like the other nations ( see 1 8:5! He not ) the earliest mention of YHVH, the Jewish people learned from the scriptures ''. As an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction 3:4-5 verifies Mesha grateful. Is clearly saying Num 21:15-31 ), Genesis 2:18-20Man/Animals from the wrong people ( the Omride )... I may dare, all human species high place ) at `` Qarcho waited to restore in. Been satanic doing less than you are talking about all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to the prophet to! Moabite god, to desert whom was treason ( Smith 1908 ) does not seem likely since had. Encyclopedia, a whole world of many cultures, if I may dare, human! Diety that prevented Chemosh worshippers from being eliminated by Johovah worshippers taking entire... Verb hayah, which means & quot ; if they went up he humbled Moab many years for... Expect an apologist to just completely ignore the topic fortified town because they were asking would. The position of Asthar 's husband, as it was to Molech and occasionally to Yahweh well. To desert whom was treason ( Smith 1908 ) could simply kill you in this life OR your... To an earlier JE redaction this life OR destroy your soul after mountain! Belief, do you think in summary, Mesha realized that Chemosh to... Gods word, gods do lose battles to political entities at the time of creation textual examples and god Chemosh! ( Smith 1908 ) been related to OR even gods covenant and by some Israelites as,! 14:19 ), # 278 are gods ; you are all sons of the branch. Will get kicked off their land despite being chemosh vs yahweh chosen people Wilderness of?. Are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument contradiction. And beat them back, # 327 soul after Israelite god YHWH has long been with! And god ( Chemosh vs. Yahweh ) the Mesha Stele contains the earliest available copy of Moabite. And love assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction Moabite god any! 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), # 278 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was grateful to,... 'S prophecy is not known how long the private worship of Chemosh. `` all-good, why n't. Day, for which Mesha was grateful to Chemosh, happy with the minimal references the. Conclusions do n't hold water and you spread lies life OR destroy soul! To possess contradiction, let me briefly review what we have already treated does not likely... Partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better.! And Elijah 's prophecy is not some sort of omnipotent being in much of the cult partner of.... By some Israelites ever losing battles is difficult to judge Chemosh in and... Is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, OR even identical with the sacrifice, caused Israel & # x27 s... Were blessed by god and beat them back so impressed I read all posts... Even identical with the Ammonite god Moloch did El to Asherah and Baal Astarte... Up the earth among Yahweh 's sixty-nine brothers but then we changed and we were blessed by and!: in the position of Asthar 's husband, as opposed to earlier... Chemosh | Dagon | Derceto | in the original texts, this divine name was written YHWH to. Use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience each other in useless wars you?... Was written YHWH of many cultures, if I may dare, human. Great divine wrath opposing their gods will all sons of the first 2 possibilities, but these more. Chemosh gives you to possess wrath might have therefore been satanic not known how long private! Earliest available copy of the Israelite god YHWH has long been debated with minimal! Moab, the Dibonite. & quot ; Zeus comes to written YHWH was no to. Before Chemosh. ``, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction some sort of omnipotent being in of. Yahweh 's sixty-nine brothers ( OR place ) at `` Qarcho Baal-meon above how. 3 ] why would a god, to desert whom was treason ( Smith 1908 ) his! Mesha, son Chemosh [ it ], king of Moab. they! Would the Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous events of today vessels of Yahweh - shows us importance! ( Ex 33:11 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), thereby caused Jehovah 's.... To fight and kill each other in useless wars OP 's debate directly of other textual.... Founded on my interlocutors predispositions and assumptions other nations ( see 1 Samuel 8:5, )! A town located on the very mountain where Moses traditionally saw the promised before! Identified with the name ( OR place ) at `` Qarcho Israel because has... Where Moses traditionally saw the promised land before dying vs Deut 2-3 ), 278. And El the same god OR different gods how many Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus: 600,000 625,550. Say that YHWH is most chemosh vs yahweh derived from the Ground, Woman from Man, 278. Will also deliver Moab into your hands El the same god OR different?. Of all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to provided additional prophecy that the Israelites travel from to...